WXman
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Trane XR 14 vs. XR 17...is it worth the upgrade?
Hi everyone. I joined the community to ask some questions because the wife and I are building a new house and I want to try and do this right the first time.
House will be 2 story with roughly 2,100 sq./ft. total. A little over 800 sq./ft. of it will be upstairs.
We will not be using foam spray insulation. It'll have standard insulation in the walls and ceiling and vinyl siding on the exterior. House will sit on a crawlspace.
Our location in Kentucky means that we'll see temps. above 100 occasionally in summer, and below 0 in the winter. Although, average temps. here run around 35 in winter, and around 78 in the summer.
Builder lists a Trane XR14 heat pump unit model #4TWR4036G1000 which is shown as a 3 ton unit and 14.5 SEER mated to an air handler model #TEM6A0C42S31.
As an optional upgrade for a cost of $ they will instead install for us a Trane XR17 heat pump listed as a dual-stage unit, with no model number given. All it lists is that it's a 17 SEER unit. I'm assuming they still use the same variable speed air handler inside the house.
My question is, would it really be worth forking over another two grand for the upgrade? The 800+ sq./ft. upstairs is in the form of 3 bedrooms for our kids. All the remainder of the living is downstairs.
I think I can get a $300 rebate from my utility co-op if I install an "Energy Star" rated system.
Advice?
Last edited by beenthere; 02-07-2017 at 03:29 AM.Reason: Price
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timjimbob
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Contractor should be able to supply you with a ROI chart, showing electric cost for each scenario.
Have him provide ahri certificate and don't assume anything. You don't need themodel #, just the system brand and description. Manufactures sometimes changes #.Look at your insulation and ductwork, spend the money there instead of better equipment.
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beshvac
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Your best worry would be about the installation. New construction builders weigh Cost against Quality and the one that wins is 99% cost. If you have any issues it all comes down to the thermostat....you set it at 75, it hits 75-the builder and his hvac sub are done with you-even if you have rooms that don't heat or cool or whistling from vents, etc.
Make sure you get Manual J -load calculation , Manual D-Duct layout, Manual T Distribution at the minimum. AND ONLY ON YOUR SPECIFIC HOUSE-do NOT accept a "this is the manual J we had done on your model house" No 2 houses are ever built alike.
Many new construction contractors don't have a clue, and the ones that do will not work for the low wages from the builder.
I wish I had a $1.00 for every response I deleted.....
"Decidedly Superior in a twisted pathetic way".....
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catmanacman
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Yes it's worth it I would also check into trane zoning
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mgenius33
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There's some debate between contractors, whether or not staging is worth it. IMO I think it is, I have it in my own home.
The reason for staging is not only for humidity control in the cooling season, but also more balanced home comfort. Even the most perfect ducting systems can't control comfort in every part of a single unit home. Why? Because load values change throughout the day due to solar gains as the Sun moves from East to West.
Staging offers the option of longer run times when the home doesn't really require full capacity. Longer run time equals more balanced comfort throughout.
Humidity removal in cooling season is also an added benefit from longer run times.With the single stage unit using the variable speed blower for humidity control, it will simply slow down the air speed. I'm not a big fan of that if the ducting is in an unconditioned space.
As far as energy savings goes....eh.... it's going to take a while to payback that much difference in cost. Probably 10+ years.
So, what you're buying is better comfort. I would vote yes. I would make sure they're using the TAM7 air handler. It utilizes a better electronic refrigerant metering device, which the XR17 uses. The TEM6 is still a "good value" and a matching unit. It's just a cheaper design.
Also make sure they're using a thermostat that senses humidity like the XL824.You can negotiate you know. It's your money...
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" Socrates
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Bazooka Joe
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Trane web-site says the XR17 can get you up to 18 SEER depending on indoor combination, it can also be less than 17 SEER. Ask them for the AHRI number to see what your SEER, EER and HSPF will be with whatever indoor combination they offer.
Living in Kentucky, Registering your system is very important as your manufacture warranty can easily be cut in half if not registered.
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WXman
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Sounds like a lot of good advice to chew on already. Thanks guys.
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dan sw fl
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HOW DOES ONE MEASURE THE COST OF COMFORT?Originally Posted by WXman
Hi everyone. I joined the community to ask some questions because the wife and I are building a new house and I want to try and do this right the first time.
House will be 2 story with roughly 2,100 sq./ft. total.
A little over 800 sq./ft. of it will be upstairs.We will not be using foam spray insulation.
It'll have standard insulation in the walls and ceiling and vinyl siding on the exterior.
House will sit on a crawlspace.Our location in Kentucky means that we'll see temps. above 100 occasionally in summer, and below 0 in the winter.
Although, average temps. here run around 35 in winter, and around 78 in the summer.Builder lists a Trane XR14 heat pump unit model #4TWR4036G1000 which is shown as a
3 ton unit and 14.5 SEER mated to an air handler model #TEM6A0C42S31.
As an optional upgrade for a cost of $ they will instead install for us a Trane XR17 heat pump listed as a dual-stage unit, with no model number given.
All it lists is that it's a 17 SEER unit.
I'm assuming they still use the same variable speed air handler inside the house.The 800+ sq./ft. upstairs is in the form of 3 bedrooms for our kids. All the remainder of the living is downstairs.
I think I can get a $300 rebate from my utility co-op if I install an "Energy Star" rated system.
Advice?
Two tons is adequate COOLING for a TYPICAL 2,100 SQUARE FEET residence
built to Current Energy efficiency (2015 IECC) standards.EXAMPLE --- Calc Basis
R-18 Walls
R-25 + Ceiling
Windows U-factor close to 0.318,300 BTU/HR Sensible Cooling at 92'F
15,700 BTU/HR ......."......."...... at 87'F___ 29,030 BTU/HR Heating at 12'F DESIGN ( dt =58'F) ...
___ 19,670 BTU/HR at 30'F ... " average temp " on a semi-mild Winter day ( dt =40'F)ATTACHMENT
____ LOAD CALCDesigner Dan __ It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with Some Art. _ _ KEEP IT SIMPLE & SINCERE ___ __ www.mysimplifiedhvac.com ___ __ Define the Building Envelope & Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows & Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities
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dan sw fl
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OP COST$
A HIGHER SEER/HSPF Heat Pump System in a well built THERMAL BUILDING ENVELOPE
in a _ LOW Cooling Region _ Definitely CAN NOT be justified BASED ON ECONOMIC$.However, THAT does NOT Necessarily mean that a SEER 17 system is not ' worth it.'
Humidity control is much better with long run times which will be a result of
PROPER SIZING AND a two or more stage Heat Pump.Operating cost estimates
... " ball park" figures
... based on $0.12 / KW-HR ..current NATIONAL AVERAGE
_______________ I presume KY may be noticeably less.A properly sized heat pump in a central air conditioned space with well designed
and installed duct work
provides Significantly greater Value.ATTACHMENT
Designer Dan __ It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with Some Art. _ _ KEEP IT SIMPLE & SINCERE ___ __ www.mysimplifiedhvac.com ___ __ Define the Building Envelope & Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows & Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities
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WXman
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Originally Posted by mgenius33
There's some debate between contractors, whether or not staging is worth it. IMO I think it is, I have it in my own home.
The reason for staging is not only for humidity control in the cooling season, but also more balanced home comfort. Even the most perfect ducting systems can't control comfort in every part of a single unit home. Why? Because load values change throughout the day due to solar gains as the Sun moves from East to West.
Staging offers the option of longer run times when the home doesn't really require full capacity. Longer run time equals more balanced comfort throughout.
Humidity removal in cooling season is also an added benefit from longer run times.With the single stage unit using the variable speed blower for humidity control, it will simply slow down the air speed. I'm not a big fan of that if the ducting is in an unconditioned space.
As far as energy savings goes....eh.... it's going to take a while to payback that much difference in cost. Probably 10+ years.
So, what you're buying is better comfort. I would vote yes. I would make sure they're using the TAM7 air handler. It utilizes a better electronic refrigerant metering device, which the XR17 uses. The TEM6 is still a "good value" and a matching unit. It's just a cheaper design.
Also make sure they're using a thermostat that senses humidity like the XL824.You can negotiate you know. It's your money...
Yeah, perfect comfort isn't my #1 priority. We're coming from an even lower grade heat pump system and other than cost to heat during winter, we were happy with it. Either of the options this builder are presenting us will be an improvement, so I'm not concerned about that.I'm primarily concerned with $$$. Will the $2,100 upgrade pay for itself in 5 years? 10? 20? If it's going to take a long time, it's not worth it to me because I really need that added up front money for other things like appliances for the kitchen. But if the payback turnaround is typically very quick, I might try to spring for the upgrade.
The thermostat they spec is a Honeywell programmable unit. I'm not sure if it has a hygrometer built in or not.
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BaldLoonie
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Not that we allow dollar discussions but: $2100 will likely pay for a whole house dehumidifier which will do lots more than a 2 stage compressor will do towards keeping the place dry. The A/C only dehumidifies if there is a call for cool. Even a 2 stage won't do a bit of good on a mild but wet day. The whole house dehumidifier will keep the place very dry without a call for cooling. If you have $2100 to spend, I'd spend it that way not a 2 stage outdoor unit. As Dan said in his post: A HIGHER SEER/HSPF Heat Pump System in a well built THERMAL BUILDING ENVELOPE in a _ LOW Cooling Region _ Definitely CAN NOT be justified BASED ON ECONOMIC$.
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mgenius33
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Originally Posted by WXman
Yeah, perfect comfort isn't my #1 priority. We're coming from an even lower grade heat pump system and other than cost to heat during winter, we were happy with it. Either of the options this builder are presenting us will be an improvement, so I'm not concerned about that.
I'm primarily concerned with $$$. Will the $2,100 upgrade pay for itself in 5 years? 10? 20? If it's going to take a long time, it's not worth it to me because I really need that added up front money for other things like appliances for the kitchen. But if the payback turnaround is typically very quick, I might try to spring for the upgrade.
The thermostat they spec is a Honeywell programmable unit. I'm not sure if it has a hygrometer built in or not.
As I tell all of my customers, if you're looking for dollar for dollar payback, it's going to take a while. There really isn't that much greater technology from the 14 SEER to the 17 SEER. You're just adding a staging ability and a touch more efficiency. So, if the more balanced comfort isn't an issue. I would say save the $$$ and get yourself some nice appliances you'll get to enjoy everyday.As Baldloonie suggested, if whole de-humidification is a priority, go with the whole house dehumidifier.
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" Socrates
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catmanacman
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The xr15 and xr16 is also worth exploring as the have a much better hspf than the xr14
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WXman
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I talked to the builders again this week and decided to go with the XR14 system. They're going to use a zoning setup so I can independently set the temp. upstairs, which is something I didn't have at the last house.
We're also going to get a gas fireplace downstairs to help knock the chill off during those really cold winter days.
Thanks for the tips guys.
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Bazooka Joe
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Outstanding, may want to verify that your getting at least a one year labor warranty from the date you moved in and not from when the system was initially started. Also make sure the manufacture warranty is registered in your name as many time they fall through the cracks when ownership changes hands and you end up with a 5/5 warranty instead of a 10/10 ( compressor/Parts )Originally Posted by WXman
I talked to the builders again this week and decided to go with the XR14 system. They're going to use a zoning setup so I can independently set the temp. upstairs, which is something I didn't have at the last house.
We're also going to get a gas fireplace downstairs to help knock the chill off during those really cold winter days.
Thanks for the tips guys.
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doug1111
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^^^^ I agree with above. System will not last long enough for the payback. What is the average lifespan of HVAC system HP in your area?Originally Posted by mgenius33
As I tell all of my customers, if you're looking for dollar for dollar payback, it's going to take a while. There really isn't that much greater technology from the 14 SEER to the 17 SEER. You're just adding a staging ability and a touch more efficiency. So, if the more balanced comfort isn't an issue. I would say save the $$$ and get yourself some nice appliances you'll get to enjoy everyday.
As Baldloonie suggested, if whole de-humidification is a priority, go with the whole house dehumidifier.
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FAQs
Is it worth upgrading from 14 seer to 16 seer? ›
A 16 SEER unit is about 13% more efficient than a 14 SEER. For every $100 you spend to cool your home with a 14 SEER, you could save $13 on your monthly bill by upgrading to the 16 SEER unit.
Is a Trane XR14 good? ›The XR14 Air Conditioner, also known as Trane's best value air conditioner, is a great investment for homeowners. The XR14 has a SEER2 rating of up to 14.8 and provides reliable and dependable cooling for your home.
How much is a Trane air conditioner XR14? ›Trane AC Model | Energy Efficiency (SEER2) | Installed Cost |
---|---|---|
Trane XR13 | Up to 13.8 | $3,500 to $5,000 |
Trane XR14 | Up to 14.8 | $4,800 to $6,800 |
Trane XR15 | Up to 15.6 | $6,000 to $8,000 |
Trane XL15i | Up to 15.6 | $6,000 to $8,400 |
Model | Nominal Tons | Height (IN.) |
---|---|---|
4TWR4030N1000A | 3 | 33 |
4TWR4036N1000A | 3.5 | 33 |
4TWR4042N1000A | 4 | 33 |
4TWR4048N1000A | 4 | 37 |
Beginning in 2023, Hanna Heating & Air, along with every heating and air conditioning company in the United States, can no longer install an air conditioning unit with a SEER rating of 13 or less. The new federal regulation means all ACs we install will be SEER 14 or higher.
What is the difference between 14 and 17 SEER? ›Higher SEER often means better comfort
A higher efficiency 17-SEER air conditioner usually comes with 2-stage cooling and a variable-speed fan. These features not only improve the energy efficiency of the unit, but provide better cooling than the 14-SEER AC can provide.
So for every $100 you'd pay to cool your home with a 14 SEER air conditioner, you'd save $13 with a 16 SEER, making a 16 SEER unit more cost-effective to run. 14 SEER units generally have a single-stage compressor, while 16 SEER units often have a two-stage compressor.
What is the SEER rating of Trane XR17? ›Trane's XR17 A/C systems have Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratings (SEER) up to 18.00, making these central air conditioners an excellent choice for home comfort and for earning energy-efficiency tax credits.
How much does a 17 SEER AC unit cost? ›SEER RATING | AVERAGE COST PER UNIT |
---|---|
17 | $4,900 |
18 | $5,500 |
19 | $6,200 |
20 | $6,950 |
A smart solution to your home cooling needs, the XR14 is an excellent blend of Energy Star rated efficiency and value.
What is the noise level of the Trane XR14? ›
The XR-13 is 71-75 decibels, the XR14 is 72-73 decibels. (For comparison, a vacuum cleaner is about 70 decibels.)
Which is better carrier or Trane? ›On average, good-quality systems last between 10 and 15 years and even longer if they are well maintained. Of the two brands, Trane lasts longer than Carrier. Some users say Trane systems last a minimum of 15 to 20 years, which can be a significant benefit that compensates for their higher cost.
Do I really need 16 SEER AC? ›For instance, a SEER rating of 16 is considered very energy efficient and can eventually offset the initial cost of the system with how much it saves you on your energy bills. Plus, higher-rated systems can provide the greatest energy efficiency, which can drastically reduce a home's carbon footprint.
Is it worth paying for higher SEER? ›In general, the higher the SEER rating, the more efficient the AC unit and the greater the potential for energy savings. When air conditioning units with a higher SEER rating are used, less energy is required to produce the same amount of cooling, resulting in lower energy bills.
What is the cost difference between 14 and 16 SEER? ›According to the Kobie SEER Energy Savings Calculator, a 16 SEER unit uses about 13% less energy to produce the same amount of cooling as a 14 SEER unit. So for every $100 you'd pay to cool your home with a 14 SEER air conditioner, you'd save $13 with a 16 SEER, making a 16 SEER unit more cost-effective to run.
Is a 16 SEER AC quieter? ›AC Unit Volume
Newer, more advanced systems have the ability to suppress the overall noise volume through sound jackets, dual compressors, smoother operation and variable speeds. Compared to older 10 SEER units, 16 SEER units are much quieter.